巴比特论坛

巴比特App
发表于 2017-1-23 13:15:54 | 显示全部楼层
活动类型:
AMA
开始时间:
2017-1-25 15:00 至 2017-1-25 17:00 商定
活动地点:
第31期
性别:
不限
已报名人数:
0

本帖最后由 萌大大 于 2017-1-23 18:12 编辑

本期嘉宾:

Matt Mazur(slack名Snaproll)
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Matt是ETC货币政策改进协议ECIP-1017的作者,加密货币信仰者,2013年进入比特币领域2014年进入以太坊,拥有10年航空领域工作背景,主要工作经验在商业发展,项目管理和战略分析方面,Matt同时是商业级飞行员、滑翔机飞行员和以及认证飞行教练。


Igor Artamonov(slack名Splix)
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Igor Artamonov是一位经验丰富的软件工程师,拥有超过15年的专业经验。 他主要关注焦点是数据处理,分布式系统和安全。
他从一开始就加入了Ethereum Classic,一直致力于技术组织部分,并创建了gastracker.io。 他领导了最近协议升级的开发,在区块高度2.5M和3M上,和ECIP-1010(难度炸弹延迟)的作者。
目前,他全力致力于ETC的发展,并正在为ETC未来技术的发展筹建一支开发团队。

Dr. Avtar Sehra    微信截图_20170123155013.png
Dr.Avtar拥有理论物理博士学位,是理论物理学家,而后成为金融风险管理者和技术产品架构师。他在量化市场、信贷风险模型,合规和战略科技规划方面颇有经验,同时是金融技术服务公司Nivaura的CEO,咨询公司和初创企业在大数据、机器学习和区块链方面的顾问。
Dr.Avtar目前是ETC社区核心开发者,新一代众筹平台Fundonomy联合创始人。



Roy Zou  (邹来辉)
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Roy 拥有控制工程硕士学位,超过10年政府工作背景,2011年进入比特币领域,并一直从事加密货币区块链技术研究工作,智能硬件区块链公司BITKIO创始人及CEO。
Roy是ETC社区核心成员,中国ETC社区的建立者,以太坊原链协会ECC秘书长,目前正协同Matt完善ETC货币政策改进协议ECIP-1017,同时负责ETC社区其它管理工作。2016年与Dr. Avtar Sehra等人联合创立了新一代众筹平台Fundonomy。


ETC相关链接
官方网站: ethereumclassic.org
中文网:ethereumclassic.cn
Slack讨论组:http://ethereumclassic.herokuapp.com/
中文QQ群:361470220


本期AMA,我们邀请了ETC社区几位开发者来讨论ETC货币政策及未来发展走向,关于ETC,欢迎来问!
活动1月25日下午三点开始,请尽早提问,以免错过活动时间~





巴比特资讯记者。寻求报道请联系meng@8btc.com。
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最新最热
yy65586497 2017-1-23 13:39:32
何时出下一个客户端(包含总量代码)?
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2017-1-25 18:57:58 Roy回复yy65586497 : ETC社区目前在在讨论当中,社区希望尽快把货币政策确定下来,这样就有更多的时间花在测试和前期的开发准备工作当中,这是ETC目前最重要的一项工作,将影响ETC的未来,我们会思考更多的社区理智的声音,采纳大家的建议,被认为是对ETC未来发展有益的建议。目前还没有含总量的代码发布。
2017-1-25 18:21:11 Splix回复yy65586497 : We going to start development as soon as we’ll be sure that ECIP-1017 is accepted by majority of community. Which seems to be happening already. We can start development in February, and it will take few months to do full testing, to find possible attack vectors on new consensus, or other misuses of the new protocol. By summer we want to have a working implementation, which is going to be tested on private chains and will be released later this year.

我们计划在ECIP-1017得到社区广泛认可后再开展研发工作,似乎社区已经有接受ECIP-1017的迹象了。我们可能在2月份开始研发,大约需要几个月的时间才能进入测试阶段,并且在新的共识中寻找可能存在的攻击向量或其它滥用协议的可能。我们希望在今年夏天开始部署工作,在私链网络中进行测试,接着在今年晚些时候完成发布。
2017-1-25 15:27:43 yy65586497回复Splix : 我是说ETC的新版客户端(包含总量代码)合适发布?也就是何时能确定使用1017方案?
2017-1-25 15:24:31 Splix: 可以更详细说明一下问题吗?ETH客户端的总量代码已在github上发布。


补充内容 (2017-1-25 15:24):
can you please elaborate the question? geth is published on github with all the code
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hellobitcoin 2017-1-23 13:42:26
技术问题留给别人问吧。我想知道ETC社区在2017年有没有比较具体的发展规划?
看到楼上两位嘉宾都是Fundonomy的创始人,这个新平台是只做关于ETC上的众筹?能多讲讲吗?

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2017-1-25 18:58:39 Avtar: Building a stronger ecosystem is a key priority. We have tried to create a cohesive community over 2016, through the online forums, and global meetups, but we know more work is required. We need to put in place frameworks for supporting DAPP developers and driving funding for core developing and external projects.
For funding core and external projects Fundonomy is a key project. While I and some of my colleagues will focus on the design and development of the platform, Roy will be focusing on the operations and business development. One of Roy’s aims is to execute a ICO to help raise sufficient funding to help provide fundonomy with sufficient capital to launch in a sustainable way
Other key areas for the community is to start differentiating itself from ETH and innovate in new directions - beyond just the consensus protocol. Key things being discussed is an improved model for uncle mining, that rethinks the whoel security model blockchain (more to come on this). But another area being discussed with external parties is an efficient/effective means of pegging BTC/ETC. This is still in initial discussion/design stage with key partners. However, the focus of such a pegging network is not just for BTC/ETC, but one that can be generalised to any chain to enable scaling through a network of networks model (exactly how the internet scaled).

建设更强大的生态系统是当务之急。在过去的2016里,我们试图创造一个有凝聚力的社区,通过网上论坛,与全球的聚会,但我们知道需要做更多的工作。我们需要设定一个支持DAPP开发的框架以及为核心开发和外部项目提供资金支持。
核心资金和外部项目基金是一个重要项目。 期间我和一些同事将专注于平台的设计和开发,Roy将专注于运营和业务发展。 Roy的目标之一是执行ICO,以帮助筹集足够的资金,帮助提供具有可持续发展方式的足够资本
社区的关键是与ETH区分开来,在方向上有一个创新——不仅仅是只有共识协议。讨论的关键是提出一个改进的挖掘模型,重新思考更安全的区块链模型。还有一个正在讨论的领域是如何有效的链接BTC与ETC。这些仍然处于和合作伙伴初步讨论和设计阶段,然而,这样一个固定的网络不仅仅是为了BTC与ETC,更是一个可以推广到任何链上,能够缩放通过网络模型的网络(确切地说,互联网规模)。

2017-1-25 16:18:07 Roy: 本帖最后由 Roy 于 2017-1-25 16:30 编辑

Fundonomy是下一代众筹平台,同时在中国和英国设立分公司。初期主要是帮助优秀的ETC应用项目筹集启动资金并发行ICO,同时建立一个信誉系统,可以说是ETC未来发展的基础设施。Fundonomy并不限于ETC,我们会考虑更多的优秀的加密货币,譬如使用比特币来发行ICO。Fundonomy将为世界范围内的创新企业提供融资需求,上市融资成本将会比现有的传统模式大为减少,Fundonomy的目标是:让每个人的创业梦想得以实现。按此目标,Fundonomy未来将可以交易筹资项目ICO的代币,并成为一个世界范围内的交易所。 Fundonomy近期正在进行一些基础性的开发工作。


2017-1-25 15:50:16 Splix: The plans for the team which is working on core products is following:
Finalize, implement, test and release new Monetary Policy
New Wallet application, as a replacement to Mist. A version for web, desktop and mobile. With focus on integration with 3rd party systems
Javascript SDK for 3rd party developers
Ethereum Classic light client, for IoT, hardware wallets, mobile clients and light desktop wallets
Research possibility of Hybrid PoS + PoW and multichain implementations, which we need for sharding, performance optimization (TPS) and for private chains
Tools to deploy and manage Ethereum Classic nodes in private cluster
Integration with Java, which is a main programming language in banks and other fintech
我们团队的核心产品计划如下:
1.完成、实施、测试以及发布新的货币政策
2.会有新的钱包应用替代Mist. 该版本将整合第三方系统并提供网页端、桌面端和移动端。
3.Javacript SDK可供第三方开发者使用
4.开发ETC的轻客户端,物联网,硬件钱包,移动客户端和桌面钱包
5.为了分片,性能优化和私有链,研究混合POS+POW和多链实现的可能性
6.在私有集群中部署管理ETC节点的工具
7.进行与银行和其他金融科技编程语言java的集成。
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大圣大圣 2017-1-23 14:08:19
我想问一下目前社区进展如何,有什么具体的应用开发介绍吗,还有ETC目前市值不比ETH,如何更好地吸引尖端开发者进入
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2017-1-25 19:00:26 Avtar: These days people see crazy amounts of cash raised through ICOs or crowd sales for laucnh of new chains, and then accelerated development to launch a product. All based on the philosophy of “Move Fast and Break Things”. However, people forget that things which are to be part of a public infrastucture, things that will form the foundation for others to build on takes time, effort and consideration. Moving fast and breaking things might be ok for building a chat App, but building a blockchain that will be used to store/move large amounts of value requires you to ‘Move Efficently and Remain Effective’. This means getting things done, showing results and deliverables, but always ensuring appropriate controls are in place to protect the users, developers, investors and miners who beleiev in the network and the vision of what it can become.
Price of the token is of great importance, and we can not (should not) minimise its relevance. However, pushing changes through to just keep the price high could also be dangerous. For example through long disucssions with @splix, he has noted that he wants to ensure that we have a strong dev team and we can start to put in place decentralised processes to make and deliver change effctively and in a controlled way.

So far we have some of the best core devs such as Splix (igor artamonov) and Elaine Ou, but the team needs to be expended to ensure we have enought people working/testing various things in parallel, as well as have sufficent capacity to support issues on the network. This also means developing a wider support communtity to help people run nodes and build applications on ETC.

这些天,我们看到通过ICO筹集的疯狂巨额资金或销售额然后加速发展推出产品的过程,所有这一切都基于“欲速则不达‘’的哲学。但是人们忘记了公共设施的建设需要大量的时间,精力和考虑。追求速度也许对于一种社交APP可以适用,但是对于构建一个用于储存大量价值的区块链来说要求的是进行更有效安全的操作。这意味着完成任务,显示结果和交付结果都要保证一个适当的控制来保护那些信任并充满愿景的使用者,开发者和投资者以及矿工。

代币的价格非常重要,我们不能小看了它的相关性,但是推动保持一个很高的价格是很危险的。例如,通过与splix的长时间讨论,他希望确保我们有个强大的开发团队,然后我们能够开始建立去中心化的流程,以及用最有效和能够控制的住的方式提供一个变革

到目前为止,我们有一些很好的核心开发者,如Splix(igor artamonov)和Elaine Ou,但是我们还需要扩充我们的团队来确保我们有足够的人手来进行工作/测试各种东西,以及具有足够的能力来支持网络上可能出现的问题,这也意味着发展一个更广的社区来帮助人们在ETC网络上建立运行他们的应用

2017-1-25 16:45:32 Roy: ETC社区的发展是很快的,包括国内和国外的,而且社区里有各种人才。国内ETC社区在ETC发起的早期就成立了,并且是很有影响力的一个社区,在2016年9月份,由十多家加密货币公司和个人共同发起成立了ETC协会组织:以太坊原链协会ECC (Ethereum Classic Consortium),协会在多个方面进行ETC的宣传和推广,做一些基础性的工作。应该来说ETC社区是国内极为少数的中国社区和国外社区能够如此团结,紧密联系的一个社区,因为我们有共同的理念:不可纂改,抗审查和去中心化的区块链,这成为了我们共同前进的动力,也是ETC能够成为一个彻底的去中心化的加密货币。

关于具体的应用开发,我们国内已经有几个项目是基于ETC的,如ETCWin和区块链赛车,目前有更多的项目在开发当中,国外也有很多项目,Fundonomy(跨国)。比特币著名企业数字货币集团DCG旗下公司Grayscale最近宣布成立了一个ETC基金,这对于ETC走向主流人群是非常有帮助的。
2017-1-25 15:52:20 Snaproll: Regarding your second point about how to attract developers: Remember, this isn’t a corporation. We’re just a bunch of people who think that this platform has a future and we are working together to cultivate it. If you are the type of person who likes high risk and an opportunity to possibly change the world, this is your place. There is no safety net, but there is also no one to stop you. You will reap what you sow here.

What’s not to like?  :)

关于如何吸引开发者的问题:请记住,我们并不是一家企业。我们只不过是一群普通人,我们人为ETC平台有前景,因此共同努力进行开发。如果你是那种热衷于高风险并希望改变世界的人,那么这里就是属于你的一片热土。这里没有绝对安全的网络,但也没有人能够阻止你。一分耕耘一分收获。

请问你有什么理由不喜欢ETC呢?:)
2017-1-25 15:50:53 Splix: We’re on early stage of the projects, remember that it took 8 years for bitcoin to be there, and still most of developers aren’t familiar with it. So it will take few years for Ethereum Classic to get adopted, and I believe that for following years more and more developers will see value of immutable ethereum and will start to develop on ETC chain. Right now we have only early experiments, on ETH and ETC, but in few years there will be thousands of applications built on top of our technologies.

我们还处在项目的早期阶段,不要忘了比特币用了8年的时间才有今天的成绩,虽然如此,但是仍然有很多开发者对它了解不多。所以,对于ETC来说,几年的时间是需要的。我相信在接下来的今年里,会有越来越多的开发者会看到不可纂改的以太坊(这里指Ethereum Classic)价值并且加入ETC的开发者队伍中来。现在,对于ETH和ETC都是处在早期的阶段,在可见的未来几年,会有上千种应用会被建立在ETC的技术之上。

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比特火锅 2017-1-23 14:37:39
ETC现有钱包客户端有几个版本?哪些是ETC专有的版本,在移动端、PC端钱包,还有轻钱包方面有什么规划?毕竟之前由于重放攻击的风险社区成员对钱包使用很谨慎,还有就是现在ETH的MIST钱包也不是特别易用,希望ETC能有更轻量化,更简便易用的钱包,包括可以让没有技术背景的社区成员轻松布置节点的程序包。
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2017-1-25 15:56:23 Splix: I fully agree that Mist wallet is hard to use. Our next high priority, after Monetary Policy, is providing an easy to use wallet for end user.  We decided to build a new wallet, which will follow our ideas about openness, flexibility and modularity. We also hope this new project will help 3rd party developers to integrate Ethereum Classic features (such as Tokens, Votes, etc), into their applications.

我完全同意Mist钱包使用很复杂。货币政策之后,我们下一个优先的目标就是为客户提供一个容易使用的钱包。我们决定开发一个遵循我们的灵活性,开放性和模块化的新钱包。我们也希望这个新项目会帮助第三方开发者将ETC的功能(例如代币、投票)结合到他们的应用中去。
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Xseraph2 2017-1-23 17:50:27
Ethereum Investment Trust,EIT成立了,怎么看Ethereum商标与名字所有权之争问题?有些人认为EIT没资格使用Ethereum名称,你们怎么看?ETC与ETH谁才是以太坊的正统?
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2017-1-25 18:59:16 Avtar: In my opinion this is a simple problem to solve. If the creators of the fund are serious to launch they can easily change the name of teh fund e.g. Etherum Classic Investment Trust (ECIT) or even ETC Investment Trust. In the finance world investment vehivcales can have abstract names, and do not neciallruy have to have the name of the underlying in them. So if ETH continues to pursue its claim on the Ethereum trademark, than ETC community can manage this. In my opinion this is not a show stopper in any way.

在我看来这个问题的解决办法很简单。如果这个基金的创始人对待这支基金的上线是认真的态度,他们只要把基金的名字改一下就行,比如说改成Etherum Classic Investment Trust (ECIT)或者ETC Investment Trust。金融世界的投资工具的名称可以很抽象,不必有什么背后深层的含义。所以说如果ETH社区仍然坚持捍卫自己的商标权,那么ETC社区是可以解决这个问题的。在我看来这不会阻碍(这支基金的)发展。

2017-1-25 16:53:20 Roy回复hempheart : 本帖最后由 Roy 于 2017-1-25 18:46 编辑

关于版权问题,在ETH和ETC社区都有讨论,还有ETH社区有人提出以太坊基金会要起诉ETC,这是在目前有争议的话题。首先ETC社区是一个去中心化,目前为止没有统一组织的社区,即使是Ethereum Classic这个名字,也不是我们主动起名的,而是整个加密货币都这样叫,我们采用了大家约定的叫法,如果要起诉,起码有个要起诉的法人对象。对于barry数字货币集团旗下公司使用Ethereum来作为ETC的基金名字,这是企业的行为,具体是否侵权值得商榷。

2017-1-25 16:28:01 Snaproll: I don’t follow the news about the EIT too much, although I am aware of it. I’m completely fine if corporations choose to defend their right to intellectual property. However, intellectual property protection of open and decentralized blockchain protocols goes against the tenets of their use case and value model. The Ethereum Foundation has every right to defend its own IP, if it chooses to. However, if it chooses to defend its IP in this case, those actions will provide even more evidence that ETH is not a decentralized, open, blockchain protocol, and is rather nothing more than a glorified distributed database that runs extremely inefficiently.

虽然我知道有关EIT的新闻,但是了解的不是太多。如果那些企业选择捍卫自己的知识产权我也很OK,但是,开放和分散的区块链协议的知识产权保护违背了其用例和价值模型的原则。以太坊基金会当然有权利选择去保卫他们自己的IP,然而,若他们真的选择使用他们的权利去保卫了,他们这些行为会更有利的证明ETH并不是去中心化的,开放的区块链协议, 而是一个运行效率低下,华而不实的分布式数据库。
2017-1-25 16:11:09 Splix: I think there will be many issues in future because of that name conflicts. We got Ethereum Classic for our community project and it seems to be accepted by most people. We didn’t choose it, it just came naturally because we has been following classical model of Ethereum protocol. There were many discussions about renaming the project, but it seems that we don’t have much alternative now.
But I don’t know what to do for 3rd party companies which wants to work on ETC, maybe of them would like to simplify their titles and use simple Ethereum. I think they should decide what to do in that situation.

我觉得将来因为名字冲突会有很多问题,目前使用Ethereum Classic作为项目名称已经被大多数人所接受,但这个名字并不是我们选择的,它只是因为ETC是以太坊分叉前的原链而被自然自发的叫做了Classic。有关重命名这个项目的讨论有很多,但是看起来我们似乎没有太多的选择。
我不知道能为那些在ETC社区工作的第三方公司做些什么,也许他们更希望简化他们的标题,比如单纯的使用Ethereum。我想他们应该来决定如何应对这种情形。
hempheart | 来自手机版 显示全部楼层
2017-1-24 13:48:38 来自手机版hempheart: ETC的货币总供应量能否再减少一些, 比如设置在1.3-1.5亿之间? 如果这样, 未开采的ETC大约占总供应量的30-40%, 与比特币未开采的占总供应量的30%大致一样。
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萌大大 2017-1-24 13:49:40
欢迎几位开发者~
这次主题讨论ETC货币政策,想问问货币政策设计思路是怎样的?什么样的政策才是合理的?
如何平衡投资者和长期发展?
国内投资者普遍要求更快的实现货币政策,最理想是2017年年中,是否可以做到?
这个货币政策需要投票表决吗?如何做到全社区的一致支持?如果没有得到社区的一致支持,社区下一步怎么办?


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2017-1-25 19:12:14 Avtar: 关于第一个问题:
Putting in place an appropriate MP means we should be able to ensure that ETC can be seen as a Store of Value (SoV), Medium of Exchange (MoE) and potentially a Unit of Account (UoA). This means that ETC should be able to retain its value over a prolonged period of time, be easy to exchange and price things in. To acheieve this the monetary policy needs to be simple, predictable and stable. Being simple and predictable is easy to manage, and Snaprolls ECIP1017 has this in place. However, we still need to ensure stability. In the current model the uncle mining process is adhoc and not effectively thought through. As it stands the uncle mining results in an unstable cap. While the range of teh cap is predictable, to ensure stability we need to reduce the value of the uncle rewards.
Uncles are important for short blocktimes. At the moment the purpose of uncles has been too narowlly defined, and maybe the creaters of that concept have not really thought through the consequences/benefits of uncles. But we are looking at way to reimagine the purpose of uncles to add security to the chain beyond just the length, but also the width of a chain. This is not an easy problem, and requires innovation beyond the current Ethereum protocol.
It would be possibel to have the MP implmented without this stability, i.e. using just current uncle mechanism, the long term view would be to fix this.
一个合理的货币政策(MP)意味着我们应该确保ETC是一种保值方式(SoV)、交换媒介(MoE)以及记账单位(UoA)。这就意味着ETC应该在很长一段时间内保证其价格,以便进行交易并定价。为了实现上述目标,货币政策必须尽量简单、可预测并且稳定。简单和可预测是比较容易实现的,Snaprolls的ECIP1017已经包含了这两点。不过,我们还需要保证稳定性。目前的叔区块挖矿(uncle mining)模式比较特别,效率不是很高,因为叔区块挖矿结果会造成市值的不稳定。由于市值范围是可预测的,为了确保稳定性,我们需要下调叔区块奖励。
对于较短的区块时间来说,叔区块是很重要的。目前有关挖叔区块的目的的讨论比较少,可能这个概念的创造者也并没有仔细想过叔区块带来的结果或优势。不过我们计划重新定义叔区块的目的,除了区块链长度之外,还会通过其广度为这条链添加安全性。实施这个方案并不是件容易的事,需要在当前的以太坊协议中作出创新。
货币政策也有可能不包含这种稳定性,也就是说,仅仅采用当前的叔区块机制,长期的计划就是修复这个问题。

2017-1-25 19:01:51 Avtar: 关于如何平衡的问题:
The price of anything has a huge psychological impact on people. But the price depends on many factors. Many of these factors are beyond our control.
ETC is ultimately a commdity, and like any commodity it has utility as well as functions of “money”. As a result we can assume that it will have a profile similiar to that of a precious metal or a fuel. But right now ETC is in its early stages and it needs to “become good” at being “money” and/or “commodity”. This will take time.
In the short term ETC needs the invesor community. It needs speculative investors that leverage volatility for financial gain or long term investors that buy and hold as they beleive in ETC’s long term value. Both are both important to the community and future growth.
Defining and implmenting a sustainable monetary policy is one way to ensure that investors interests are fulfilled, but at the same time ensuring the network’s future is secured. But this needs to be done carefully and not by moving fast and breaking things… I again come to: ‘Move Efficently and Remain Effective’
任何事物的价格都对人们有巨大的心理影响。但定价取决于很多因素,很多因素也不在我们的控制范围之内。
ETC本质上是一种商品,和任何商品一样,它具有“货币”的功能。因此我们可以假设ETC和贵金属和燃油类似。但目前ETC仍然处于早期发展阶段,在“货币”和/或“商品”属性方面它还需要“变好”。这个过程需要一些时间。
短期内ETC需要投资者社区。它需要投机者利用价格波动性获取利润或者长期投资者不断买入和持有ETC,并相信其长期价值。这两种投资者对社区和其未来发展来说都是十分重要的。
确定并部署一个可持续的货币政策是满足投资者兴趣的其中一种方式。但是与此同时,我们也要确保网络未来的安全性。不过对于安全性追求应该小心谨慎,欲速则不达……我再重申一遍:“高效发展以及保持效率。”

2017-1-25 16:43:26 Snaproll回复Snaproll : 关于最后一个问题:社区共识。

I admit that this has been causing me headaches lately. Obviously, miners running the upgraded clients is the ultimate voting mechanism in the crypto/blockchain space. Figuring out the amount of interest in a different way than that is tough. I have thrown out ideas with others about different ways to do voting, but they all so far, have been shown to be susceptible to vote manipulation. I don’t really know how to get around that issue, and am completely open to any great ideas and suggestions that you or anyone else can come up with.

我承认这是一个头痛的事情。首先,很明显的一点是,在区块链界,矿工是最终的投票机制。很难去以其他方式评估社区成员的意见倾向。我们一起想过一些办法,但是都有可以被操纵选票。目前暂时没有很好的办法,我们欢迎大家的各种建议

2017-1-25 16:29:31 Snaproll: 1.I wrote a “Thesis” for how I approached developing a monetary policy that will be posted here shortly. Its a 3-5 minute read, but it should give you a good idea for how the I approached the design. 我写了一篇短文阐述我是如何开发货币政策的。读完全文三到五分钟,应该会提供一些参考价值

2.Again, check the “Thesis” to get the best understanding. Basically, it’s trying to figure out what can best be considered as representing a “fair” model. The closer we can come to what can be considered “fair,” the more balance there is in the model for users along all time periods.
重复一次,还是请看“论文”里面的内容就会有更明白的体会。基本上,我们努力去寻找什么是被认为最”公平“的模型,我们越接近被认为的“公平”,就越能找到一个对所有用户长期来说的一个平衡模型。

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MissCherry! 2017-1-24 13:52:45
为什么要设置上限?
ETC有最终上限吗?设置上限数量是怎么考虑的?具体在哪个区块高度实现?

ETC遵循怎样的减半规则?为什么不是参照比特币的50%而是20%?
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2017-1-25 17:16:43 Snaproll: 关于后两个问题:

ETC currently does not have an upper limit on its supply over time. I have introduced a proposal to the community, ECIP-1017, that propose what I call the 5M20 model. Basically this model reduces emission rates by 20% every 5M blocks (2-2.5 years depending on network growth), in addition to equalizing all uncle rewards.

ETC目前对其供应还没有上限,但我已经向社区提出了一个建议,ECIP-1017,提出我所说的5M20模型。基本上,该模型除了平衡了所有叔块的奖励以外,每5M块(2-2.5年,取决于网络增长)将产出率降低20%。

Check out the “Thesis” I wrote up on how I approached developing the 5M20 model. That should help a bit with understanding my approach to monetary policy. Basically, using a 50% model like bitcoin creates centralization of token ownership. By my calculations, simply using a bitcoin model would create a cap of between 115M and 130M ETC. Remember that there were 72M ETH/ETC in the Genesis block, so more than 50% of all ETC ever created will have been produced in that Genesis block. The goal I set out for (described in the “Thesis”) is to achieve “optimal total investment.” Introducing risk decreases the potential of achieving optimal total investment, and increasing the amount of centralization of token ownership introduces risk.  

可以查看论文了解我写的关于如何发展5M20模型。这应该会帮助你理解我对于货币政策的态度。基本上来说,使用一个类似比特币的四年减半系统会加剧货币所有权的集中化。依据我的计算,简单照搬比特币模式会讲etc总量控制在1亿1千万到1亿3千万之间。请记住,在创世块中有7200万枚货币。也就是说,超过一半的货币在创世块中。而我们想要达到的是最优总体投资配置。照搬比特币会加剧货币所有权的集中,从而加剧风险,降低达到最优的可能性。
2017-1-25 16:43:54 Snaproll: 1.为什么要设置上限?
Having an upper bound, or a “cap,” on a token, or any tradeable object, assists with price discovery, or finding the true value of something since its level of scarcity is known and/or can be measured. Determining the value of token in terms of its scarcity is also important in measuring the utility value of the interactions of that token with things that are willing to use or take that token in exchange for a good or service.  In ETC is is advantageous to the network to have scarcity of the token because it will indirectly affect what applications will be viable on the platform, since use of an application will come with a cost (the token). The better the market can determine the price of the token, the better the users of the tokens can determine the true value of the applications they will use that token for.

对于任何可交易的对象来说拥有一个上限或说是一个顶端可以帮助其价值的发现,或者说是发现其真实的价值,因为他的稀缺性可以被认知或是测量得到。对于那些愿意使用它来进行商品或服务交换的用户来说,根据稀缺性来衡量这个代币的价值也是非常重要的。在ETC中,代币的稀缺性是有利于网络的运行的,因为ETC的价格会间接的影响在该网络上运行的应用的实用价值,因为在ETC网络上运行需要成本(代币)。市场上代币的价格越好,或者说越稳定,使用者就能更好的判定他们使用的应用的价值。

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hempheart 2017-1-24 13:55:04
ETC的货币总供应量能否再减少一些, 比如设置在1.3-1.5亿之间? 如果这样, 未开采的ETC大约占总供应量的30-40%, 与比特币未开采的占总供应量的30%大致一样。
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2017-1-25 17:14:36 Snaproll: 回答关于ETC货币总量的问题:

See my “Thesis” for my way of thinking on this subject further.
详情请看我的论文

But to directly answer your question. Yes, its possible. However, is that what should be done?
但是直接的回答是,是的,是有这样的可能。但是到底是否要这样做?

I argue that limiting the token cap to 100M-130M would introduce an a high amount of risk to the network by way of token centralization. ETH had a premine of about 72M tokens, and ETC is stuck with this too. If we limit the amount of tokens to your high end number of 130M, that would mean that more than 50% of all the tokens ever to be produced would have been produced in the genesis block (72M premine). Compare this to bitcoin which distributed 50% of its total amount of tokens over the first 4 years of its existence. This may sound good to speculators who want to have as high of a % of total tokens as possible, thus giving them power over the network, but it won’t give them a strong network to have power over, because outside potential speculators/investors will be cautious about the centralization and will be less likely to buy into it. 130M tokens total will not achieve what I call “optimal investment,” which is the highest amount of sustained investment over a period of time, as compared to the 5M20 model I propose in ECIP-1017.

我认为将货币供应量限制在100M-130M会加剧代币所有权的集中化,从而对这个系统造成极大的风险。ETH有7200万的众筹的提前采好的代币,ETC也不得不如此。如果我们限制代币总量在130M,超过50%的代币已经被在创世块,第1块中产出,而比特币头四年的产出总量才50%。对于投机而言,当然持有比例越高越好,因为这样会使得他们对网络有一定的掌控,但是这样的网络并不是一个健壮的网络,因为外部的潜在投资者会非常谨慎的看待这种集中化,并不会积极的买入。130M总量不会达到我称之为“最优投资配置”,也就是在一定时间内达到最高的可持续投资。而我提出的5M20则会如此。

We will all have more pie (including the speculators) if, instead of concerning ourselves with doubling our slice of the pie, we instead use our efforts to double the pie. If you can pull off both at the same time, you are a rockstar.

先把蛋糕做大,再去考虑自己的那一份的比例。如果你都能做到,你很牛!

10% of 2𝛑r^2 > 20% of 𝛑r^2

2017-1-25 17:13:26 Snaproll回复JR13 : I am optimistic about ETC. It has a real chance of getting serious traction. I believe that it is the best positioned smart contract platform in the world right now. However, that does not mean that ETC’s position is perfect for long term viability and growth yet. More needs to be done to set this on a proper course, such as implementing a proper monetary policy and continuing to strengthen the stability and reliability of the network. Splix is doing a great job, in my opinion, of remaining steadfast and rational in how he approaches development at the core level of ETC. He is really setting a good tone for the network. I am working on two ideas for applications which I think could add value to the ecosystem, and am looking forward to be surprised by others who intend to build on the platform.

我非常看好ETC.这是一个值得认真对待的机会,我相信这是目前世界上最理想的智能合约平台。不过,这并不意味着目前ETC已经拥有完美的长期发展生存的和提高的能力了。我们还有很多的事情是要做,让它在适当的环境中前进,比如说完善一个合适的货币政策和坚持强化平台网络的稳定性和可靠性。在我看来,Splix在ETC的核心发展层面保持着非常坚定的想法和理性的判断。他为网络设定了很好的基调,同时,我想出了两个办法,这个主意可能能为生态网络增加一些价值,我很期待看到那些准备在平台上搭建的开发者们惊讶的样子。

2017-1-25 17:08:52 Splix回复JR13 : Our current goal is stable platform to execute smart contracts on blockchain. We’re moving from mostly research stage to development, building a stable and practical platform for other developers. This could take time, like 1 or 2 years, but it’s already open for developers. We expect that by 2020 our chain will play major role in business-to-business applications, and there will be thousands of applications which will use ETC as a critical part of their architecture. We believe that principles of immutable blockchain will give ETC more adoption than to centralized mutable blockchains

我们目前的目标是建立一个能够稳定的执行智能合约的区块链平台,我们正在从研究阶段转型到研发阶段,为开发者建立稳定实用的平台。这也许需要花一到两年时间,不过现在也已经为开发者开放了。我们期望在2020年之前我们的链能够在B2B应用中占据主要地位,并且将会有成千上万的应用使用ETC作为其体系结构的主要组成部分。我们相信,不变的ETC区块链会比可变的中心化区块链更多的被采用于应用中。

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2017-1-24 14:43:04 来自手机版JR13: ETC到底有没有前途呢???
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2017-1-24 14:37:24 来自手机版JR13: ETC到底有没有前途呢?
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沉潜gogo 2017-1-24 19:45:24
ETC有没有如ETH类似的发展规划及时间表?应用个数、开发团队有哪些?谢谢
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2017-1-25 16:45:00 Splix: Currently we have a community which maintain core projects on their free time. I’m working on the building a core team to work full-time on core projects, looking for Golang and Rust developers. Also there are forming a team for enterprise related projects and consulting, which I’m also forming right now and we already have great Java developers working on that matter (project Etherjar, integration of Java with Ethereum). So we have at least 3 teams currently working on core projects. Also I’m aware of other team planning to contribute to ETC open source projects in near future. It just takes time to organize whole process of collaboration.

目前我们有社区成员在自由时间维护核心项目。我正在筹划组建一个核心团队来全职开发核心项目,正在寻找golang和rust开发者。另外我还在组建一个团队,负责企业相关项目和咨询,我们已经有很优秀的java开发者。所以至少现在有三个团队在同时运行。我也有听说有其他开源团队和项目,组织这一切都需要时间

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比特吹 2017-1-25 13:11:06
ETC现在是否会有更多的应用在跑着,  ETC未来和ETH会如何错开方向竞争呢, 或者说ETC会主要往更强的EVM还是更高的TPS发展
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2017-1-25 18:57:13 Splix: I spent more than 15 years of developing large systems, I understand very well what software developers need from that technology to start using it, so I’m working towards this goals of lowering entry barriers and providing right solution to their needs. I believe that my experience will help ETC to build more usable platform and it will get more adoption by developers. ETH is focusing on making experiments on the field, questionable experiments. We’re focusing on providing stable basement and tools for 3rd party developers. We have plans for a new EVM, light clients, TPS improvements and integrations with other blockchains and distributed systems, such as ZeroNet and IPFS

我开发研究大型系统将近15年了,我非常了解软件开发人员需要什么才能开始使用这项技术,所以我致力于降低他们的进入壁垒以及为他们的需求提供正确的解决方式。我相信我的经验将帮助ETC建立更多的可用平台,它将得到开发人员的更多采纳。ETH目前专注于进行实际的测试和一些有问题产生的实验,我们正注重于为第三方开发者提供稳定的平台工具。我们有新的EVM,轻客户端,TPS改进以及和其他分布式系统的集成计划,比如说ZeroNet和IPFS。
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七步上天堂 2017-1-25 13:13:42
ETC社区有了解Qtum 量子链吗,  他们似乎要做比特币和以太坊的桥梁, 你们这块是否有合作的计划和空间?
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2017-1-25 18:53:43 Roy: ETC是一个开放的社区,ETC潜力无限,在技术上会不断演进,我们欢迎任何对ETC链进行开发的项目,Qtum 量子链的想法不错。
2017-1-25 18:52:24 Splix: I aware of a few initiatives to integrate Ethereum (ETC or ETH) with Bitcoin, and we’re very interested in that solutions. Unfortunately we didn’t discuss possible cooperation yet, but I’ll be happy to talk to Qtum authors
我知道几个团队在将ETC或ETH和比特币整合,而且我们非常感兴趣这些解决方案。遗憾的是,我们还未讨论可能的合作,但是我非常愿意和Qtum的作者们聊聊。
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七步上天堂 2017-1-25 13:16:13
还有一个问题, 以太坊里面的代币其实意味着gas 燃料,按正常商业理解, 燃料应该是越多越好,不应该把他当成一个通缩货币来使用。 是否可以考虑另外一套机制来激励用户和矿工, 比如像小蚁一样, 区分出小蚁股和小蚁代币的模式?
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2017-1-25 18:52:47 Splix: My personal position that Ether should be considered as a main currency to pay for gas to execute contracts on Ethereum Classic, and there shouldn’t be much scarcity, because this is important for Dapp developers. But for the security of the network we need to provide sufficient payments to miners.
For that matter I think that Ethereum Classic miners can be rewarded not only with Ether native coins, but with other token coins used in ETC blockchain. It can be implemented by a smart contract without changing our existing protocol. As proof of concept I launched BitEther Coin, which follows Bitcoin monetary policy model (21M coins, halving, same timeframe), and miners can be rewarded with that coin with every mined block of Ethereum Classic blockchain. And I encourage authors of new tokens and companies who are going to launch ICOs to distribute part of their tokens through miners in that way, that will secure the network and will be beneficial for all of us.

我个人认为在ETC上,以太应该被认为是支付燃料智能合约的主要代币,并且不应该有太多稀缺,因为这对于DAPP开发者很重要,但是为了网络安全,应该为矿工提供足够的付款。
对于这个问题,我认为ETC矿工可以不仅仅被奖励以太本土代币,还可以被奖励其他应用于ETC网络上的代币,这可以通过智能合约来实现,并且不改变我们的现有协议。 作为概念的证明,我推出BitEther代币,它遵循比特币货币政策模型(21M硬币,减半,同一时间框架),矿工可以同时奖励这个和ETC代币。 我鼓励新代币的创建者和将要发布ICO的公司以这种方式通过矿工分发他们的代币,这将确保网络安全,并将对我们所有人都有益。

2017-1-25 18:49:14 Snaproll: Fuel requires a market price in order for the market to determine the value of the operation of a dapp. Only good and worthwhile dapps will continue to be used on a network with higher gas prices. I am intrigued by the BitEther coin concept that splix has developed, and think its is quite a unique approach to awards. Fundamentally, I see security of the network and operational costs of contracts on the network to be interconnected, so I have difficulty in seeing a future where the operational costs of doing business on the network is somehow not directly related to the costs of the security that enables those operations.

燃料需要市场价格,以便市场确定DAPP的运营价值。只有良好和有价值的DAPP将继续在气体价格较高的网络上使用。我很感兴趣的是比特币硬币的概念,并认为它是一个独特的方法来奖励。 从根本上说,我认为网络的安全性和网络上的合同的运营成本是相互关联的,所以我很难看到一个运营成本、网站业务成本和支付网络安全性费用不相关的未来。

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2017-1-25 13:29:47 来自手机版比特渣: 货币政策越快执行越好  总量还是过多 而且挖的时间太久了 另外应用研发要跟上 哪怕是复制也好
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多年之后 2017-1-25 13:28:57
Fundonomy平台现在情况如何?何时能上线?btcc 何时上线etc?
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2017-1-25 17:27:19 Roy: Fundonomy被认为是ETC未来发展的基础设施,目前正在进行开发中,将很快与大家见面。 Fundonomy正式上线时间视开发进度。
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2017-1-25 13:30:55 来自手机版比特渣: 争取多上几家交易所才好
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比特吹吹 2017-1-25 13:37:19
ETC和ETH社区关系怎么样,  会不会挖几个ETH的开发者过来开发ETC?  ETC社区开发者的经费都是怎么来的,是否可持续? 这关乎我是否继续投资ETC的想法, 我当然会捐赠一点,但体量太小也不可能捐很多。
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2017-1-25 17:45:34 Splix: I don’t think we going to recruit any of existing ETH developers, because they already have contracts, and because EF is a commercial corporation it’s very likely that they have signed Non-Competing and Non-Disclosure agreements. So we’re planning to hire non-EF developers, and we’re looking for talented developers with blockchain experience to join ETC dev team.
Source of fund is based on donations, it’s not so big currently, but we already have funds to hire few developers. We hope to find more sources of funding, and we’re always open for donations.

我不认为我们会雇用任何在职的ETH开发者,因为他们已经签下了合约。而且以太坊基金会(EF)是一个商业化的公司,所以他们还可能签署了非竞争和保密条款。所以说我们还是计划雇用非以太坊基金会开发者,而且目前我们正在寻找有区块链开发经验的开发人才加入ETC开发团队。
我们的经费来源于捐赠,目前获得的资金不算多,但至少够用来招募一些开发者了。未来我们希望开拓更多经费来源,对于捐赠我们还是很欢迎的。

2017-1-25 17:20:58 Roy: ETC和ETH,都有各自的发展方向,并不是你死我活的零和游戏,我们现在都处在加密货币发展的初期,未来的发展前景还很大,这个市场可以容纳比现在大的多的数量的项目,所以ETH和ETC社区应该需要和平相处,本来在技术上有共同性,虽然ETC在2018年会走自己的技术路线,但是两个社区在未来应该可以合作。ETC社区是一个完全去中心化的社区,跟比特币一样,我们欢迎任何认同ETC价值的开发者加入进来,即使不认同,只要想在ETC做些事,都可以加入进来,因为这是个去中心化的社区,你的加入不需要得到别人的允许,所有的代码都是开源的。 关于开发者经费问题,对ETC是个挑战,目前开发者基本上是自愿的,有一个全职的开发者Igor(splix),另外Charles的IOHK公司也组建了一个叫Grothendieck团队,未来会开发一个新的客户端。 除此之外,我们有一些少量的企业捐献,如中国比特币为ETC捐了几笔ETC,我们希望大家可以多点支持ETC,因为这是一个完全去中心化的加密货币,它的发展有赖于大家的支持。Roy正在连同几个开发者进行一个核心开发团队的建设,为此我们需要一个更稳定的经费来源,和一些有经验的开发者的加入。
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AMA时间:2017-01-25 15:00 - 2017-01-25 17:00 热度(9226) 讨论(90)
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